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Author Topic: A DPS Medic Thread: Y'all ain't got nothin on me  (Read 10659 times)


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A DPS Medic Thread: Y'all ain't got nothin on me
« on: Jul 02, 2014, 04:43 AM »
*Updated as of 11/11* Field changes come into effect, meaning all fields will do 2x their damage minus 1 single tick total. Several fields' damage have been changed. Gamma Rays has also been nerfed in damage, again.

*Updated as of 10/2* Gamma Rays T4 changed to be a flat cast reduction.

*Updated as of 8/7* We got "buffed" in drop 2 on 7/31 and hotfixed on 8/7. It barely affected us numerically aside from some nice beneficial bugs if you can work them. The increase in damage should largely be attributed to the unlisted fix of not having a builder that takes 1.5+ seconds to cast instead of 1.25 like the tooltip has always said.

I'm starting this off a little differently with some total damage. These are on a per cast basis. If you hit the button one time, and the full effect hits, this is what it will do.
Please note that these are from ws-base and that I only verified half of these. After finding enough of them to be correct, I assume the site isn't wrong on the ones I didn't check. If you think one of these is wrong please tell me and say why. I'll be more than happy to double check and change what needs changing.

Abilities                    Base                           T4                 T8
Discharge                              639+ 29.40%                + 63.05%*                + 71.45%
Gamma Rays1948.5 + 89.46% +114.78% +140.1%
Q. Cascade***2322 + 106.65% 3096+152.28%*+162.36%
Nullifier2967+ 135.93%+209.03%+307.38%*
Fissure1576.5+ 72.51%+ 87.03%+146.95%*
Devastator Probes  2220+101.76%+141.12%+180.48%
Collider1060+ 48.68%+ 68.92%+ 89.16%
Collider + %1399+ 64.22%+ 90.86%+117.50%
Annihilation2922.5+ 134.19%+156.19%+178.19%
Atomize936+ 43.03%+ 61.55%+ 125.01%*
Dual Shock**1276+ 58.65%+ 71.69%+ 84.73%

* = The tier bonuses at their respective ranks are included into the overall damage from that point forward
**= This ability currently only scales off of support power
***= I don't know why I even put this on the list when this is meant for single target
Note: Atomize and Dual Shock are off the GCD and can be cast at any point in time, even together if you're fast/macroing. Ideally, both are taken, but more than likely Dual Shock will be kicked out for either utility or potential AoE purposes should they be necessary.

This table is primarily only useful for the instants, as instant casts apply the GCD of 1 second. Discharge, Gamma Rays, and Q. Cascade all need additional math applied to figure out how much DPS they're worth, but we'll come back to them in a bit. Also, right now it's not really worth it to concern ourselves with many of these T8 bonuses no matter how sick Nullifier looks at max.

The math I've been wanting to prove for weeks: Is Devestator probes T4 worth it in a single target rotation? It mandates that you take either Fissure or Collider to take advantage of it, so that will be included into the equation to find its DPS. With max CDR Dev Probes becomes a 10 second CD, Fissure becomes just under 13, and Collider stays the same. This means as a popper, Collider is better than Fissure, because there's a ~2 second wait for the use of Fissure. The final tick of Dev probes must be sacrificed to gain the explosion, meaning by itself, the ability will do not 1.5X its normal damage, but 1.33X.

This leaves us with the numbers: 2952.6 base, 187.69% T4, and 240.04% T8.
Sounds awesome, right? Now let's add base Fissure and Collider(no %):
DP+Fissure: 4529.1 base, 260.2% T4, 312.55% T8
DP+Collider: 4012.6 base, 236.37% T4, 288.72% T8

Now the soul crushing part: Divide all of them by 2. That's the time it takes you to cast both spells, and so if we're to compare it to the numbers above, we need to put it in a per cast average.
DP+Fissure: 2264.55 base, 130.1% T4, 156.27% T8
DP+Collider: 2006.3 base, 118.19% T4, 144.36% T8

That somehow makes it worse than regular Dev Probes. Sure it technically boosts the damage of another ability, and if Fissure gets fixed then it would be a nice way to make Fissure not suck so bad, but as it currently stands there's no reason to take either of those abilities for single target DPS unless you're popping probes. Now, surely if we ranked up Fissure to T8 and left probes at T4 or T7 it would be pretty good, right? That's nice and all, but what are you going to do for the rest of your 11 seconds? If you compare the time it takes for that damage to land by diving those damage numbers by their respective limiting CDs, you find out that a pretty small amount of dps that you "gain" from putting points into probes and the poppers. Not to mention Collider ends up beating both regular DP and DP+Fissure purely on the fact that you can get almost the same bang in a much quicker time frame. Also, don't forget about the human error involved

Conclusion: Popping T4 Devastator Probes is actually a single target DPS loss that only becomes forgivable if Fissure's debuff is working(it currently isn't).

7/31 UPDATE:New Conclusion: This is even more unviable than before assuming a working Gamma Rays ability as the % from popping probes has decreased at each major tier. Tier 4 is at 35% down from 50%, and Tier 8 has had it's splash damage lowered to 75% of the new 35% as well as hitting 1 less target.

B-b-but Jenk-sempai, you haven't shown numbers to prove that yet!
Let me change that.

Up to date as of 8/7. What the fuck Merkal?
Calculating how much DPS a "pure" rotation does:
*We're ignoring Recycler for now so I don't get a headache from trying to accurately math that damn thing, and basing the numbers off the assumption it will never happen is more reliable than expecting it to work when you think it should. Also assume T8 for both abilities.

Starting a fight at full actuators and landing all 3 shots of Gamma Rays will allow you a grand total of 3 Gamma Ray casts. This puts us at 1 actuator, and there lies the problem. In my mind its easier to do 2 Discharges, and throw away an actuator(try not to do this in game). That leaves us with a nice little rotation that's easy to math. On the other hand it's not optimal due to throwing away an actuator and not proccing In Flux, which we want up all the time. Optimally, from there we would cast 1 discharge and then 2 Gamma Rays. This leads to problems with the maths representation though as there's always the human error due to the T4 bonus hopping spots in the rotation all the time. So how about both?

2 Discharges + 3 Gamma Rays: 7978.5 +602.71% 7771.5 +592.99% 7123.5 +563.2%
It would take 5 5.05 seconds to fully cast all of those, so we end up with: 1595.7 +120.54% 1554.3 +118.6% 1538.9 +117.4% 1410.6 +111.5%
Not the greatest is it? But remember, this throws away an entire half a Gamma Ray.

For the next one we pull wizardry out(even though it's totally not necessary anymore). Remember those 3 Gamma Rays we got off at the start? That took 2.5 2.4 2.55 seconds. Take the total of the 3 Gamma Rays and divide by 2.55. That gives you Gamma Rays pure DPS value if we never had to cast anything other than that. Now we weight it so that it only accounts for 2/3rds the amount of the equation, i.e. multiply by 2, divide by 3. Divide Discharge's values by 1.25(cast time) and then again by 3 and then add to our Gamma Rays and you have the answer. Gamma Rays is now a static cast at all tiers. Simply add the damage from total amount of casts and divide by the duration it would take.
1 Discharge + 2 Gamma Rays: 1957.2 +141.67% 1974.15 +144.08% 1684.06 +125.93% 1537.63 +119.2%
Keep in mind that this is the representation of our WORST CASE SCENARIO in a single target environment if we play like robots with 0 ping and ignore beneficial bugs. There will be other things like Energize and Atomize that get us actuators back regularly that pump us up closer to that glorious ideal of 2680.2 +183.92% 2705.6 +187.54% 2546.5 +176.5% 2292.4 +164.82%. If we can reach that, nothing beats it but T8 Nullifier, and that ability is whack dawg takes way too fucking long to actually deal all of its damage.

Will be coming eventually. While I haven't checked numbers yet, it seems to me that 2 or more targets should simply spam T8 Q. Cascade and T8 Discharge. However, as soon as you bump up the number of targets to 5 or more and can guarantee they are stacked it becomes viable to take minimum T4 Q. Cascade, any rank of Discharge, and go all the way up to T8 Devastator Probes with any rank of Collider. Take Collider for the popper over Fissure because it allows you to pop them after 4 ticks and then immediately reapply the probes, whereas Fissure is gated by its cooldown. That also allows you to pop them early with the second Collider cast if you know they won't be living past the next 10 seconds. But again, this is purely what I've seen off my meter and experimenting with builds. Out of date, update pending.
When field changes come into play it may become viable to run a fields build for AoE. Nullifier and Annihilation will be changing to do a maximum of 1.75x their current damage if the target sits in the field for the entire duration(Nullifier tier bonuses that make it so strong now will be nerfed however). Since a single Annihilation[Anni for short] currently does almost as much as single Gamma Ray cast, the change will make Anni beat Gamma Rays on a 1 to 1. The upside is that Anni can hit 5 targets and is instant, the downside is that you must weave in at least two Discharges or more abilities in between every Anni cast. It also leaves room to clip the dot it will apply if you cast Anni on CD by using the T8. Optimally you would Anni > 2x Discharge > some instant > .5 second wait before repeat/another instant, or some mishmash of this. I'll math later unless anyone else wants to beat me to it, but currently I'm thinking some variant of using T4 GR instead of an instant or any tier Quantum Cascade and stopping the cast in the middle to make use of in flux.
Also, don't forget that Nullifier is OP in that it has no cap on the targets it can hit.

*Update* I probably won't be updating this section for field changes. The math I did pre-patch says fields still don't beat GR spam when it comes to single target, but AoE past three mobs will probably be able to keep up with T8 QC so long as you don't complete baseline your Discharge and QC at the same time. Also keep in mind it takes Nullifier 16 entire seconds to do all of its damage, and the cooldown is 15 without cooldown reduction.

Recommended Things
If you call yourself a DPS medic you at least have these AMPs minimum:

From there anything else we pick up is pretty minor, so go with what you feel like. I recommend Core Damage as well as Annihilation as a base ability, but those points can be allocated elsewhere if you can find an argument to do so.

Swap Gamma Rays to Q. Cascade if you know you're going to be fighting five or more targets for a long duration.
Also swap T4 Empowering probes with T4 Paralytic surge when necessary, which is almost all the time in dungeons and almost never in raids.

Various Things n Junk
For everyone who is using Empowering Probes at all, it is worth noting that if you are spec'd into Annihilation that it is possible to 'eat' a GCD. Basically cast Annihilation and hit Empowering Probes immediately after. If you do it fast enough, you'll cast both at pretty much the same time. This will always be considered a personal DPS increase. This also works with Fissure, Devastator Probes, Collider, and probably most instants we have that I don't care to test.
« Last Edit: Nov 11, 2014, 05:47 AM by Jenk »


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #1 on: Jul 02, 2014, 09:43 AM »
I wouldn't mind seeing the builds other medic dps are running for single target. Still trying to figure out the highest output build myself.


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #2 on: Jul 09, 2014, 01:16 PM »
Wheee update


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #3 on: Jul 31, 2014, 01:21 PM »
Say goodbye to seeing me anywhere near the top of the meter for awhile. Until the 2 second ICD on T8 Gamma Rays gets removed this shit is going to be whacky. I don't understand how they can rationalize what went down. They openly admitted single target dps was lacking, so to fix it they lowered the DPS of atomize while removing it's RNG, and then turned our single target ability into an AoE as well as nerfing it multiple ways because it's now AoE. What the fuck? It might be worth it to use Q. Cascade for single target now just for some stability/predictability while we wait for the hotfix that removes that fucking ICD.

« Last Edit: Jul 31, 2014, 01:34 PM by Jenk »


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #4 on: Jul 31, 2014, 03:19 PM »
Well, this is pretty distressing.  I was coming here to get some schooling on DPS performance.  But yeah, the changes right now are pretty inexplicable.  We can't cast 3 GR in a row without an Atomize in the rotation every 10 seconds.  So, yeah... they busted it pretty hardcore.

I will say this.  I have always believed that medic dps could be really impressive with a very skilled player.  Jenk, you showed that to be true.  Time on target, disciplined rotations, accuracy are all super-important.  But for a dps medic the cost of mistakes is ridiculously high.  I feel that the changes (once hot fixed) will serve to lower the skill level required to reach higher levels of performance.  I'm not one to look for easy-mode, but I will certainly appreciate some help here.  It will still provide room for highly skilled players to stand out, but perhaps leave a bit smaller gap between top 1% and 'good'.



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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #5 on: Jul 31, 2014, 06:18 PM »
Well, I'm kinda rethinking my position on the matter now. I still think the 2 second ICD on T8 should be removed, but I tested around on a raid dummy and I actually saw a slight DPS increase, but that's largely due to the fix on getting consistent returns from T8 and the .25 time reduction on triple GR casts. There's also a stealth fix they did and didn't post on the notes where the .25~.33 seconds of dead time at the end of each Discharge got fixed. With that thing in place our builder was literally the worst one to spam for dps, but the fix brings us back up to where we were since we aren't spending a second out of every 10 to 15 seconds doing literally nothing even with a perfect rotation.

Regardless, the current way things are, our optimal rotation feels so clunky in practice it hurts and we didn't get the buff like we were told we were going to receive.


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #6 on: Aug 01, 2014, 08:16 PM »
The biggest annoyance for me so far in trying to learn this thing they are trying to call a rotation is when you very clearly have 2 actuators and are hitting gamma rays but the client tells you no.  I actually made a macro that squishes atomize, dual shock, and empowering probes into one cast.  Even at my low crit rate I was hitting it enough to keep decent up-time on empowering probes(I think, without seeing logs I really can't say this for sure).  I kept switching between having annihilation in the macro and trying to use it manually and I think for now it's a dps increase for my skill level to keep it in the macro.  There are a lot of people on reddit and the forums talking about using hold to cast for gamma rays and putting everything else on a macro outside of discharge.  I'm not sure how I feel about going that far with it at the moment but we will see. 

Some other issues that I know I need to get worked out with the play style:
  • Proper innate usage(is it ever ok to hit it when you have one actuator?)
  • Aiming!
  • Annihilation up time
  • Not being so surprised when recycler procs
  • In flux! up time

All in all I feel like after the ICD goes out the window the rotation at least will be in a good place.  I think a big part of the issue dps medics were having early on was over complicating the rotation, and after looking at Jenk's log for the x-89 kill before the merger I think it's obvious.  So many dps medics on the forums were arguing over proper fissure usage, devastator probe micro managing, weaving/smushing instants and off GCD abilities, buff up time, etc. etc. when really all you have to do is discharge, gamma rays, atomize, annihilation.  I say all of this with the caveat that i'm very new to medic dps in practice so I could be talking out my ass  ;D

I post this and then hop over to the medic forums for a quick read through of any new threads and I find this

Carbine Studios Staff
Posted Today, 03:05 PM
This is indeed not intended and we are looking at fixing the issue.
« Last Edit: Aug 01, 2014, 08:19 PM by Dazok »


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #7 on: Aug 01, 2014, 09:53 PM »
IMO it's always okay to hit your innate at one actuator. The only thing you can do is an instant with a CD or Discharge, and more Gamma Rays beats both of those options. The only bad time to innate is when you're over 2 actuators(so at 3 or 4) or when you won't be able to keep doing damage for the full buff time(like right before having to LOS Kuralak for the explosion). Optimally you hit it at 1 or 0, and there's virtually no difference between the two, so don't go thinking you HAVE to get to 0 actuators to get optimal use of Energize. Hitting it at two is a little bit of a fuck-up, but as long as you aren't hitting it at three or four you should be fine.

Secondly, even disregarding the T8 bonus on Gamma Rays completely the DPS we get from just doing "Discharge > Gamma Rays > repeat" beats hitting any instant CD we have unless you tier one of them up to a certain point, and that includes Annihilation. Atomize and Dual Shock can be cast at literally any time now so weaving isn't an issue, meaning the only time we should be "casting" anything other than Discharge or Gamma Rays is if you're GCD munching with Empowering Probes.

As for Recycler and In Flux... I literally can't think of anything to say other than you have to always be looking and be reactive. I mean, if it makes a difference, I don't use hold to continue casting, but I do use the ability queue system, and using that it is possible to tell it to do Gamma Rays before Discharge every time(it only works sometimes for me). It only makes a difference at low actuators, because in times where it can't Gamma Ray it defaults to Discharge and then it's up to you to stop mashing Discharge when you see the first half of the cast and switch back to Gamma Rays or it ends up doing a second Discharge. I doubt it's the optimal setup for maximum laziness/efficiency, but I enjoy mashing keys so I don't have that much of a problem with the button spam required for it. Plus it's been working well so far for me so I don't see a reason to change 8).


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #8 on: Aug 01, 2014, 10:24 PM »
You're going to have to explain that ability queue thing again or in more detail.  I guess i'm not even sure what your talking about.


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #9 on: Aug 01, 2014, 11:28 PM »
Options > Combat > Input Options

The third tick box is "Use Ability Queue if on Cooldown" which maxes out at half a second. I think it's turned on by default. Basically what that means is that while that is in effect if you have less than a half second left on your current cast then when you button down your next ability it will become queue'd up and set to cast immediately after your current cast finishes. What this means is that say there's less than half a second left on Gamma Rays while at 2 Actuators. If you hit Gamma Rays and then Discharge again during that window it will smart queue whichever one is castable. At least, that's what it feels like happens, maybe I'm just spamming too much and that's nothing at all close to what actually happens.


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Re: A DPS medic thread
« Reply #10 on: Aug 04, 2014, 02:40 PM »
There is currently a bug with Gamma Rays that enables us to do more DPS than intended. Using it, it is possible to spit out 3 Gamma Rays in the span of less than 1 second. I can only get it to consistently spit out two, but the benefit from doing so is still fairly large as it basically forces my next 1.25s cast to be a .25s cast.

How to do: You must have hold to continue casting enabled. Cast 2 GR's so that your next cast is at the .25s mark. Get to full actuators and then hold Gamma Rays down. It will shoot at least 2 out in less than a second and trick the server into thinking that your second .25s cast was actually your first 1.25s cast. You're next cast will be .75s at which point you're back at the .25s cast mark and can abuse the bug again.

Do realize though that it is possible to fuck this up and lose dps because of it. If you don't hit the .25s mark and try to use hold to continue casting while your initial cast is 1.25s, then you will ignore the .75s cast and cast it at the 1.25s speed. In other words, if at full actuators and you hold to continue casting GR while having never cast GR before, you will do two 1.25s casts back to back.


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Re: A DPS Medic Thread: The time has come, and so have I
« Reply #11 on: Aug 05, 2014, 05:58 PM »
I had this happen to me on two different pulls last night and to be honest I thought my computer was messing up (fps or ping issue).  There are a few different threads on the official forums talking about it now so I expect it to be hotfixed relatively fast, alongside the atomize/dualshock bug.


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The OP has new pixels.


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Maybe I'm slow and this has been in effect for awhile or it happened in the last patch we were supposed to have and I'm still slow, but we got stealth nerfed due to a bug with GR. T4 bonus that lowers the GCD on the third cast isn't working properly and leaves us with dead time where we can't cast anything at all. I'm hoping this is more of a bug that'll get fixed, but I think it was semi intentional and meant to fix the problem of the beneficial GR bug. So for now instead of getting a small dps increase sometimes, every medic gets a permanent dps decrease. Woo
« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2014, 06:07 PM by Jenk »


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Re: A DPS Medic Thread: Well, it was fun while it lasted
« Reply #14 on: Aug 28, 2014, 11:43 PM »
They said it was a bug introduced by their fixes to SS's cooldowns on the 8/27 patch and not intentionsl.

    CRB_Anlath, on 28 Aug 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

    I know it's in the other thread, but confirming here;

    Gamma Rays got bugged after the latest patch due to a fix for a Spellslinger issue (darn those light armour wearing pansies). Basically, GR GCD is no longer being properly reduced when using T4+.

    Cougar's confirmed that this fix will be put on the next train to Live, but we don't know when that train is leaving the station just yet.

    So, yes... Soon™


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