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Author Topic: Spreadsheets  (Read 2067 times)

Inovisible

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Spreadsheets
« on: May 13, 2013, 01:11 AM »
For those who are not familiar with me, I am an avid theory crafter and make spreadsheets as a side hobby.

I have spreadsheets for multiple ACs. Not all of them are fully completed and I am constantly updating when I find new information.

Feel free to provide feedback, criticism, sniper fire, and whatever else because I take all criticism as constructive, whether it is intended that way or not.

As far as progress, currently it is as follows...

Scoundrel:
Sawbones: complete
both dps specs: in progress...
Shadow:
Tank: complete
both dps specs: complete
Commando:
Gunnery: complete
Assault: 1.7 version..need to upgrade
Sage:
Healing: only started, needs a lot of work
both dps specs: started initial setup
Sentinel:
wrong Dual Saber Throw coefficients listed on torhead so that ability needs some work
Watchman: complete
Vanguard:
Tank: complete
Guardian:
Tank: complete


Here is the link --
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjFKX4r0-jTxdFNWZWlGaDBmbTdBcDBGQmJjNFpCNWc#gid=11

Request access to view. I add anyone who is interested.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 07:35 PM by Inovisible »



Inovisible

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 11:48 PM »
Are you a Gunnery Commando? Balance/Infiltration Shadow?

Are you hitting 3k dps in your 69/72 mix of gear? No? Perhaps your stats are allocated incorrectly. Perhaps you are using the wrong rotation. Take a look at the spreadsheet and you may be surprised with what you learn.

I know 99% of Balance specs are using the wrong rotation when it comes to sustained dps (as are a ton of other classes). Sure, you pvpers can use your burst rotation all you want but pve is a different ball game. Please don't say ignorant things like one is better than the other - they are simply different and of course everyone has their preferences. The point I'm trying to make is that you could use some improvement if you're not hitting close to 3k dps and I'm willing to help.

I am only asking about Gunnery, Balance, and Infiltration right now because I have confirmed those with in-game parses that match my spreadsheet data. I will consider the other dps specs as beta until proven correct.

Xanxas

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #2 on: Jun 01, 2013, 01:45 AM »
I don't play balance spec too often, but I'm going to need to soon. What would you say is the best rotation then?

Campbell

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #3 on: Jun 01, 2013, 08:30 AM »
I too am interested in balance spec rotation, and 2.0+ version of gunnery commando. Let me know when you updates those.

Zetsuma

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #4 on: Jun 01, 2013, 08:41 AM »
It looked like he specified shadow for balance. I can't imagine it being much more that FiB > 2DoTs > MC > DS > Strike.

Inovisible

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #5 on: Jun 02, 2013, 01:09 AM »
The biggest part people mess up with the balance rotation is spreading out the dots. Since both dots have the same CD, most people use them right next to each other, back to back. The problem with doing that is eventually, down the line in the fight you will have to choose between casting one of your dots OR your FiB. If you spread them out, you maximize your dots and FiB. Then it is similar to what Zetsuma said, FiB/2DoTs > MC > DS/SS. I think you will find the rotation much smoother by spreading out the dots. My spreadsheet has more details.

I was referring specifically to the Shadow Balance dps but the Sage version is pretty similar; you want to spread out the dots. While for Shadows, everything is a single GCD, you only need 1 GCD space between your dots. However, with Sages, it is 2 GCDs because of your TK throw. When FiB does rotate in between the 2 dots, you need to use a single GCD ability paired with it. The Sage spreadsheet is not 100% complete because I have to calculate Noble Sacrifice into the rotation but that is the base of it. There are a few more things that I can explain easier in-game.

Test it a few times on the ops dummy and you should see a notable increase in your dps.

The BiS stats for Shadow Balance is full power augments, 114 crit rating, 316 Surge, and 474 Accuracy.

I'm still working on the Sage Balance BiS stats but for the moment it looks like full WP augments and stacking power with a very small crit rating.

As for Gunnery, most people already pair their HIB and DR since they have the same CD. I think what most people mess up is casting their GRs at the wrong time and not optimizing their Curtain of Fire procs. It sucks that GR is activated instead of instant because it forces you to use a whole extra cast that already gets queued before you notice that you have gained the CoF in your buff bar. When you see that you have gained CoF from your GR, you will in the middle of another GR. When that GR finishes, FA will obviously be the next cast. After your FA, do 2 casts and your 3rd cast will be GR spams until you gain CoF again (I've seen this go really bad with RNG...). FA is your top-most priority so if you need to push HIB and DR back a few then do it. Other than that, it's basics like using your Electro Net on CD and then pairing your Reserve Powercell and Tech Override to cast your Plasma Grenade. Your second instant cast from the Tech Override is used for a lucky Grav Round, giving you a slightly better effective CD on your CoF.

Most people know the Gunnery BiS stats but it is full Aim augments, stacking power only, and raising Surge and Accuracy evenly to 395 rating for each.

Zetsuma

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #6 on: Jun 02, 2013, 03:57 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but that would happen even if the dots are spread apart, no? Also, the dps you lose by having to choose is just lost at the beginning of the fight when you only have a single dot on the target in the attempt at getting them spread out.

I don't see a need to over-complicate a simple rotation. The damage increase - if that is actually the case - would be pretty minuscule I'm sure.

Xanxas

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #7 on: Jun 02, 2013, 11:01 AM »
You would be using your opener in the beginning so no dps loss.

Inovisible

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #8 on: Jun 02, 2013, 11:52 AM »
This is much easier to explain over mumble but I'll try my best here.

Actually, it won't fix itself down the line. This is the point of calculating the mathematically perfect rotation because there is one for every class instead of mashing buttons. The main difference is that we are talking about sustained dps. Sustained dps means you should be able to keep it up high numbers for an average of 250-300s. Anyone can burn all their energy using every attack on their bar with a best guess of best priorities and still hit 3k dps for 20s or maybe even 90s if they are good. However, after the 90s point is where most rotations cross hairs and poor rotations or less than perfect rotations really show themselves at the 90s point.

I'm guessing you haven't taken a look at the spreadsheet yet but I'll try my best to explain it here. The balance sustained dps rotation operates around the 18s DoTs. If you view the rotation as a series of 12 attacks and the 13th one is repeating the first, then try to look at them all as placements where the DoTs never move from their location. Since the FiB is a 15s CD, it will slowly move its placement back 2 spots of the 12 for the following cycle. After 5 cycles, FiB will be exactly where it was for the first cycle. This is why it is not as you say where it will happen anyways. Actually, you will run into the same problem every 5 cycles or every 90s. Yes, while your opener misses 1 GCD of your DoT being applied, it is not comparable to the multiple times you would miss the DoT damage when you have to choose between a DoT or your FiB.

Even more so, here is how it works with "everyone else's rotation" -- You apply your 2 DoTs and your 3rd attack is FiB. 15s later when the FiB finishes its CD is the exact same time that your first DoT finished its CD. Not only are you losing dps from that DoT but because you have both DoTs next to each other, you miss a GCD worth of dps from each DoT. The same thing applies if you use your FiB, refresh the 2nd DoT, and fire the 1st DoT 2 GCDs later.

It's not over-complicating a "simple rotation." Every class has the same "simple" rotation but I still find ways to over-complicate them to make them better. You may think that it doesn't amount to that much of a dps loss or call it "minuscule" but it actually calculates out to a 20 dps loss while the boss is above 30% health and even more when you enter the burn phase. If we are using your logic, then why even bother stacking power? Why not have a bunch in crit mods or why not just use willpower augs instead of power augs like you are supposed to for shadows? It would be the same difference of about 20 dps from having the wrong gear. This is the point of BiS and a dps loss is still a loss no matter the size. I could take a sip of my water 3 separate times during the middle of the fight, missing 2 complete GCDs each time as still get higher dps because it would probably happen when I'm supposed to be using DS or SS. The DoTs are too important to miss.

I really don't get why people even argue with me about the logical improvements that I suggest. Maybe I'm one of those "elitists" who won't accept 2nd place. When we're all looking at MOX at the end of a boss fight, there always seems to be 2 or 3 people out of the 10 dps that are consistently at the top. Wouldn't you want that to be you? If you are at the top, wouldn't you want it to be by a landslide and not just a close-one? The people who hit 3k dps consistently are not there because they sacrificed 20 dps here and 20 dps there, they are at the top because they are doing more things correctly and even if they still are not perfect, they are at least closer towards perfection than the others.

Zetsuma

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #9 on: Jun 02, 2013, 02:02 PM »
I had the spreadsheet opened after we talked and I realized a couple things.

We did say that successive dots were actually better until 90 s, when you run into that problem. It ends up occuring at 75 s (we were just looking at the length of the cycle in your rotation. However, if you use FiB on CD you will naturally transition into your rotation - DoT-FiB-DoT - Same as - DoT-Blank-DoT. At 75 s you refresh your first dot, and the only gcd without the second DoT would be moving it one spot down (1 gcd - the same as what you used to space them at the beginning) to accommodate FiB.

If you then maintain that spacing that will naturally occur, you will end up with the max theoretical DPS. We know that phase changes (which restart the rotation) occur fairly frequently now, however, so it probably wouldn't be an issue, and occasionally some abilities will be on CD so you'll have to improvise.

Zetsuma wins at the theoretical DPS race! :P

That said, I would not even know where to start as far as your spreadsheet goes. It's very well done. I'll set you on the task of proving alacrity when I have the chance to get you that info.

Inovisible

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #10 on: Jun 03, 2013, 11:01 PM »
That's right; it's 90s to be back to the exact same starting position but the intersection of FiB and DoTs will occur at 75s. Thanks for pointing that out. For others information, who were not part of our mumble discussion, the 2 DoTs next to each other followed by FiB and using stuff on CD is best for any fights were you are not staying on the same target for more than 75s. If you happen to stay on the same target for more than 75s straight then you should use the spaced out DoTs rotation as previously mentioned.

Zetsuma, I look forward to working on the Guardian dps spec. I need a new project to keep me busy. Since I'll be building it just for you, I'll leave out the sustained rotation for now and just calculate the optimal dps build for burst damage with a focus on PvP. I'm excited because this will be my first PvP focused spreadsheet. Before this, everyone has only asked me to build PvE focused spreadsheets so I think it will be interesting :D

Civic

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #11 on: Jun 04, 2013, 07:53 AM »
It may be better for you to do burst and sustained?
Or at least sustained for PvE and burst for PvP?? For all classes?

I think you should do a Sentinel one as well, from the Combat's perspective.. i'm interested in seeing what you come up with..

I can put all of my stats, with min/max tooltip damage into a spreadsheet if you want.
« Last Edit: Jun 04, 2013, 08:05 AM by Civic »

Zetsuma

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #12 on: Jun 04, 2013, 11:09 AM »
For the sake of clarity, we are saying to always start with them adjacent. If you cast FiB on CD you will end up with them dots being 1 space apart by the 5th FiB, which you will continue with to keep the dots up. (It does end up being just one GCD lost - which cancels out the one from the beginning)

What is the best/easiest way to get that information into the spreadsheet? Is one by one the only way?

Inovisible

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #13 on: Jun 04, 2013, 07:00 PM »
It may be better for you to do burst and sustained?
Or at least sustained for PvE and burst for PvP?? For all classes?

I think you should do a Sentinel one as well, from the Combat's perspective.. i'm interested in seeing what you come up with..

I can put all of my stats, with min/max tooltip damage into a spreadsheet if you want.

Actually, I could make the Combat spec relatively quick compared to the effort I would have to put into other classes. I don't need your tooltip damage but I do need a few other things.

Este already filled out most of the information when he helped me with the Watchman sheet. Here is an example of his work --
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoPlNx_mmKR5dFRxdmV1RS0tckNDaVBGb2lPdUNlMHc#gid=0

Just fill out the missing Combat abilities and their coefficients and give me your skill tree names and descriptions. To find the coefficients of abilities, just search for the ability in torhead.com and click the "effect details" of that ability, which will expand and give you all the required numbers. I need it all and then I can start my work.

Inovisible

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Re: Spreadsheets
« Reply #14 on: Jun 04, 2013, 07:07 PM »
For the sake of clarity, we are saying to always start with them adjacent. If you cast FiB on CD you will end up with them dots being 1 space apart by the 5th FiB, which you will continue with to keep the dots up. (It does end up being just one GCD lost - which cancels out the one from the beginning)

What is the best/easiest way to get that information into the spreadsheet? Is one by one the only way?

The spreadsheet already calculates the optimal dps value based on all the formulas if that's what you mean. That is why the damage in the "Sustained dps" section should match up to your parses. I just make up the rotations on the far right side of all sheets based on logical deduction.

 

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